Iraq To Christians: Leave Or Die
Given that the right keeps pushing how good things are going in Iraq, and how many so-called “good Christians” pushed for the war, it’s interesting to note that since the removal of Saddam Hussein, Christians have been hunted down, murdered, and forced to flee since we invaded that country. 60 Minutes did an updated report Sunday night on its original December 2, 2007 story about the lack of religious freedom there.
Scott Pelley’s interview with Baghdad’s vicar, the Reverend Cannon Andrew White, is compelling.
From the time of Jesus, there have been Christians in what is now Iraq. The Christian community took root there after the Apostle Thomas headed east in the year 35.
But now, after nearly 2,000 years, Iraqi Christians are being hunted, murdered and forced to flee — persecuted on a biblical scale in Iraq’s religious civil war. You’d have to be mad to hold a Christian service in Iraq today, but if you must, then the vicar of Baghdad is your man. He’s the Reverend Canon Andrew White, an Anglican chaplain who suffers from multiple sclerosis and from a fanatical determination to save the last Iraqi Christians from the purge.
White invited 60 Minutes cameras and correspondent Scott Pelley to an underground Baghdad church service for what’s left of his congregation. White’s parishioners are risking their lives to celebrate their faith.
These are the biting arguments offered that we must avoid. Taking sides here makes us look like “Evildoers.” Liberals didn’t mention the word “Crusade.” America is in a war not restricted to just Christians. Don’t start no mess won’t be no mess. Reject these discussions in Liberalland. Someone could be planting them to make us look bad?
June 30th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
And why would this surprise anyone?
Here in America the president had to send the 101st Airborn to Little Rock, Arkansas to ensure that ordinary citizens didn’t beat or kill nine black kids trying to go to school.
The only remarkable thing, in my view, is that any Christians survived in the region of Iraq for the last 2000 years.
So who’s the “crusaders” now?
June 30th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
i never thought i’d say it… organized religion breeds intolerance.
that’s not to say that religion is bad, bc i believe it’s not. but using religion to justify injustices to another human being- that’s a BIG problem.
June 30th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
cecil~ i’m not sure i understand your argument. why should discussions on real situations be rejected, and how on earth do they make us look bad? i’m totally confused, dude.
June 30th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
And this is a shock to people? Iraq knows the U.S. is a “christian” nation. We attacked them and they are retaliating against the christians because they thinks it’s a way to get their voices heard…they don’t want us there!
June 30th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
DAMN IT ALLEN, Dont pee in our pool !! We are winning this war! Must we go over this again? So what if it took 71/2 years to motivate Iraq troops to fight for their country? Our boot camps in The USA take that long to motivate soldiers,havent you seen “stripes” the movie?? Iraq will soon be back to a dictatorship Quicker than you can flip a coin.
P.S. we need more poker money to look for bin laden ! get the lead out…chop chop!!!!
June 30th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Why can’t Iraqis just act like Americans? How dare they want us out of their country. Don’t they know the Bush Administration knows what’s best for them? So ungrateful…
Besides all this just makes little baby Jesus cry…
June 30th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
furyus~ i love you man, but you’ve got some SERIOUS ISSUES
LOL
June 30th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
I think Mr purple finger may have some issues Cheryl. I don’t wanna know how the finger got purple…
June 30th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
FuRyUs:
Love your post. You crack me up!
June 30th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
When my brother came home from Iraq he told me he had talked to christians in Mosul and visited a few christian churchs.He said that Iraqi christians feared what would happen to them now that Saddam was not in charge.I guess they were right.
June 30th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Hmmm, well, if you think anybody’s winning in Iraq, try this.
June 30th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
60 Minutes–People still watch that?
I thought some of their questionable tactics had sunk them into obscurity long ago.
Must have a good Damagae Control Assistant keeping them afloat.
June 30th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Fox “News” –People still watch that?
I thought some of their questionable tactics had sunk them into obscurity long ago.
Must have a good Damagae Control Assistant keeping them afloat.
June 30th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
60 Minutes–People still watch that?
by C Smith June 30, 2008 at 6:51 pm
“60 Minutes” has been in the top ten of most watched tv shows for two decades. Still is.
http://www.nielsenmedia.com/nc/portal/site/Public/menuitem.43afce2fac27e890311ba0a347a062a0/?vgnextoid=9e4df9669fa14010VgnVCM100000880a260aRCRD
June 30th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4FkZfRXLGA
ready to double the trouble? just when you thought there was light at the end of the tunel.
Furyus,you have no idea whats about to happen do you???
June 30th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Sorry purple. I was being sarcastic about the whole Bush thing. I think Bush is a fool and the war sucks…
June 30th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/06/29/us.iran/
June 30th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
lol, fury.
June 30th, 2008 at 11:19 pm
That’s okay Fury, I knew you were just being sarcastic. I thought is was funny.
June 30th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
I’m honestly not surprised. They chased out the 2,500-year-old Babylonian Jewish community (and seized their assets on the way out), so it should come as no surprise that it would only be a matter of time before the Christians were next.
July 1st, 2008 at 1:44 am
Well joshua, when the usa helps a country become a nation of islam all bets are off. Democracy will only go so far when your neighbors are Iran seria afghanistan who do not see things the same way. If Im wrong then Clinton,carter,reagan are just a few that will be in my company.
July 1st, 2008 at 2:09 am
Because no Christians were hunted or murdered before the war started….give me a break.
July 1st, 2008 at 5:52 pm
There some Muslims who wish for Sharia Law here and abroad like Joseph Cohen, Al-Khattab, There are Christians and Jewish Orthodox Conservatives who would love the implementation of Biblical Law here in the USA. They all have one thing in common the Law’s of the Old Testament or as some would say the Law’s of Moses. I am thankful, as many should be, that the USA is a Secular Nation. Why? Those who do not want the imposition of other people’s religion forced upon them, they are protected by the lack of State sanctioned religion. They have a freedom of speech, freedom or religion, free expression, and freedom of thought that are Our Liberty. This Liberty is provided and protected by the constitution. Without a secular government those who would wish that government be the arbiter and enforcement agent of Biblical Law’s, Dogma, Ideology, Covenants, or Mandates. This is what Sharia Law is or any Biblical Law. It is the state enforcing Religion upon the citizen. It is the State forcing you to promote one belief system over all others. Some would say that science and math are belief systems and they would be wrong. Science and math are proven methodologies not theologies nor are they ideologies; rather they are the only tools we have to find facts about the world in which we live. Reason and Logic are not religion, they instead are what separate humanity from bacteria or the earthworm. Christianity, The Jewish Faith, Islamic Faith are all separate interpretations of the Old Testament. Christianity and Islam have different idols, Christ v. Mohammad, yet the only things that separate them are the interpretation of both New and Old Testament. The Koran is nothing more than Mohammad’s interpretation of both Testaments and his supposed talks with God. Christianity relies upon Christ’s interpretation of the Old Testament and there is nothing in the New Testament that would stop Christianity from believing that the Old Testament Law be enforced like Sharia Law. For Sharia Law has allotted of the identical punishments and ordinances that are prescribed in Old Testament verses. If you do not believe me read the entire Old Testament and get back to me. There are many verses in the New Testament that order the implementation, observance, adherence, or commandment by Jesus Christ to remember, or follow Moses Law. Jesus refers to Moses directly in verses (Matthew 5:17, John 5:45-47, Luke 24:44, John 6:19-23, and Hebrews 11:23-29). So I have Biblical basis for my fear of Christian, Jewish, or Islamic deformation, negative evolution, and fundamentalist extremism. It is this vigilance and respect for the Wall of Separation of Church and State that I hope preserve my freedom, as well, our freedom of religion, thought, or speech.
July 1st, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Christians can turn on non-believers just as Iraq’s fundamentalists have turned on conversion happy Christians in the US supported Theocracy, the so-called free Iraq. This is for those who doubt the need for secular government in the US.
We do not consider that much of the covenants or Biblical law is not legal in our modern secular world. Christianity, Judaism, and Islamic religious beliefs have one thing in common, the Old Testament and many of the same prophets. Think about or read the Old Testament or New Testament and consider what verses are by modern legal standards, not legal. The list is long. If you do not believe me, please do the research for yourself. Here are some verses that are against the law in the U.S.A. and the modern secular world.
(Leviticus 20:13/24:16/24:10-15/25:44//27:29/, Numbers 15:35-36/31:31-40, Deuteronomy 22:28-29/21:15/21:18-21/22:13-24/13:6-18, Hosea 2:2-13/9:12-16, Exodus 35:2/21:7/22:18/22:20/22:29/31:14-16, Zechariah 13:3, Judges 11:30-40, Daniel 11:30-39, Jeremiah 12:14-17, Matthew 5:25, Samuel 15:3/10:21, 1st Samuel 15:3, 1st Timothy 2:12, Psalm 12:3/137:8-9 These are only a few examples. Concubines and multiple wives are illegal in the modern world yet are permitted within the Bible. I am thankful for secular, rational government otherwise we would live in a nation reminiscent of Afghanistan under the Taliban. Yet there are some people here in the U.S.A. that would be perfectly fine with Biblical Law becoming the Law of the Land. This is why we must defend the separation of Church and State by denying or refusing government Promotion of Religion. If we do not we loose our precious Liberty. Some Christians would argue that Christ would not enforce these verses. They would be incorrect due to the very fact that Christ was Jewish and held Moses Law in high regard. Christ mentions Old Testament Law many times through out the Bible. Jesus refers to Moses directly in verses (Matthew 5:17, John 5:45-47, Luke 24:44, John 6:19-23, and Hebrews 11:23-29). At any time Christians can revert to the now illegal aspects of the Bible. There is much in the Bible that is unethical, immoral, and despicable. Unfortunately it is the God of the Bible who is the one acting with such ugly behavior. This is the reason why religion and government must always be separated as our constitution has wonderfully provided for.
July 1st, 2008 at 6:48 pm
We continually look for an answer to the root cause of extremist terrorism. We seem to be perplexed by how anyone could bomb and abortion clinic or fly airplanes into the World Trade Towers. When the solution to the question of, why, is clear. Religion, fundamentalism, extremism, and absolution are the reason. This is not an attack of the freedom of religion in the constitution. The constitution uses religion to mean belief, thought, or faith. The constitution does not mention the freedom of fundamentalism and its freedom to act or force that fundamentalism upon other sovereign citizens. The freedom of religion does not protect you from following the secular Law of the Land. You cannot force religion. You cannot act out the Mid Evil thoughts that are held within the Bible or Koran. So you have a freedom of religion. You do not have the right to act out your religion upon the government or other citizens. Slavery is in the Bible and you cannot own slaves in the US. This argument is an attack on evangelical fundamentalist religion. To evangelize means to convert. This is acting out religion upon other citizens, which is a violation of their personal sovereignty. They can choose to believe if they wish. The forced evangelized or pressured evangelizing is the problem. Muslims who wish to convert the world to Islam are evangelical. They proselytize in the same way Christians do. Muslim fundamentalist extremists do not want to evangelize they have a sick, immoral dream of eradication of people who do not believe. This is born out of the frustration of the failure of evangelizing of non-believers. Christianity has experienced the same frustration in the past and the present. The issue is that it could happen here. Imagine a Christian Theo-conservative Fundamentalist Movement that happened to be fed up with evangelizing people and decided the more efficient way to Christianize the world was to kill non-believers, thus leaving only Christians. It may sound far-fetched. But it is only a few verses and amendments away from happening her in the US. That is why the Constitution forbids government from promoting or making any law that establishes religion. That is why the constitution forbids any religious test for office.
July 1st, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Most of the major theologies create the fertile soil for the growth of conflict, disagreement, hate and fear leading to war in most cases. The Middle East is the prime example of why no single Church or religion should have influence within government. The name Jesus Christ is not in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. The words creator, nature’s God, Blessings, and Unalienable are words or concepts that most religions would use. No religion has a monopoly on those words or concepts. The founding documents never outline nor define whose version of God they refer to directly. There is no direct reference to any God in the first legal document of the USA, the Constitution. The Declaration of Independence is not a legal document. The only word that has the possibility of an indirect reference, Blessing, can be interpreted many different ways and is not sectarian or specific to the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Pagan version of God. People will mention, “Well on our money it has, In God We Trust, so this has to be a Christian nation. This is also not a definition of who’s God we trust. Can anyone say with certainty whose version of God we so trust? If anyone can, they do not believe in freedom of religion. Freedom of Religion does not mean freedom of Christianity only. It is not a freedom granted to any single religion. It is a freedom granted to all religions. To protect the freedom of religion you cannot have Government Promote or Establish “State Sponsored Religion.” To further protect religion individuals must have a Right of Privacy or Sovereignty. All the Rights held in the Bill of Rights are collaborative in the sense that without one other Rights suffer. They support and reinforce each other to create the Sovereignty of the Citizen. Religion is a revelation of thought. A religion is a repetition of thought, action, or belief systems, which may or may not include a Divinity or God. So the Freedom of Religion is a protection of thought backed up by Free Speech, Free Expression, and the protection of intellectual property, which is further reinforced by our Right of Privacy free from government intrusion. Some would ask; what does Privacy have to do with the Freedom of Religion and the establishment clause in the Constitution forbidding the creation of any Law or promotion of State religion thus separating religion and State? Everything. Speech, thought, individual belief or faith, the physical body, personal property, intellectual property, papers, and effects are an extension of a Sovereign Citizen. The concept of private property stems not from ownership rather private property originates directly from the Sovereignty of the Individual, the Citizen. The Privacy of our mind and body extend to ownership. The government is the one who has limited Rights. The Government cannot infringe upon the citizen with out the due process of Law. So any law that violates or infringes upon Citizen Sovereignty is therefore Unconstitutional. The Government does not have any right to legislate the Citizen’s physical body, thoughts or idea’s, belief or faith, speech, expression, and what the Citizen does with the afore mentioned. Thank anyone’s God for the Bill of Rights.
July 1st, 2008 at 6:54 pm
The trail of blood is long, covering thousands of years of religious violence by many faiths. The tit for tat argument is an argument that repeats the circle of violence. When will we realize that Absolution, either Christian or Muslim is Absolute Insanity?
July 1st, 2008 at 6:59 pm
We won’t realize Absolution because you are in the minority to believe that it is the way to go. Every religious person is religious because they think thier faith is the right one. So if it is the right one why would they want to get rid of it?
July 1st, 2008 at 7:01 pm